Naljorpa Ögyen Drak-tsal Rigpa'i Dorje: Thank you, Khenpo Sonam Rinpoche, for allowing us to interview you. And we appreciate your presence at this retreat, and your help and kindness to all of us. We have, under Ngak'chang Rinpoche and Khandro Déchen's inspiration, a website that has many photographs and stories, especially as you can imagine in our lineage, of ngakpas and ngakmas; but also other teachers and friends of Ngak'chang Rinpoche and Khandro Déchen's. We would very much like to put your picture and perhaps your life story, or any teaching or comments you would like offer, we would be happy to put there as well. Also, we publish a web magazine which contains both teachings and interviews. If you are interested, perhaps this interview could turn into an article in `vision'.

Especially Tantric practice depends so much on guru and student relationship.

Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche: Yes - good, but I cannot say anything much - but I we are all practising Tantra. To tell my background - I come from a ngak'phang family lineage - like the Aro gTér. My uncle was a very close student of Düd'jom Rinpoche back in Tibet. At the time there were two great teachers who were the closest students of Düd'jom Rinpoche; one was called Lama Karpo Rinpoche, and one was called Lama Nakpo Rinpoche. Lama Nakpo Rinpoche was my uncle. He had lots of students under him; but he died three or four years ago. He was the one who spread the Düd'jom gTérsar in Bhutan.

Naljorpa Ögyen Drak-tsal Rigpa'i Dorje: Both Lama Karpo Rinpoche and Lama Nakpo Rinpoche were ngakpas?

Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche: Yes, both of them were ngak'phang Lamas.

Naljorpa Ögyen Drak-tsal Rigpa'i Dorje: Were you born in Bhutan?

Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche: Yes, I was born in Bhutan.

Naljorpa Ögyen Drak-tsal Rigpa'i Dorje: And how did you come to travel to this country?

Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche: I was thinking of travelling to the United States - I had this in my mind. So this year I got the opportunity to come here. So I think I can travel slowly, slowly; and then I can teach to people. I am very happy that you have very good Lama like Ngak'chang Rinpoche. He has very good students - like you yourself.

Naljorpa Ögyen Drak-tsal Rigpa'i Dorje: We are very happy that he is in the world.

Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche: Yes. I really liked Ngak'chang Rinpoche's teaching - and he emphasises lineage and the guru-student tradition so much.

Naljorpa Ögyen Drak-tsal Rigpa'i Dorje: Yes, especially important to him is the Vajra Master - making sure that this role is preserved in the West. Also that as Western people become Buddhists, there is no attempt to change that and to eliminate the role of the Vajra Master to some other relationship, perhaps based on Western political or social ideas. That the role of the Vajra Master is maintained as an essential part of Tantra - that is an important issue for Ngak'chang Rinpoche and Khandro Déchen, and they spend a lot of time talking about this.

Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche: Yes, I very much liked what Ngak'chang Rinpoche was saying: You cannot just take any one thing from Buddhism into your life; you have to take the whole thing and make that a part of your life. You can be Buddhist - your life can be a Buddhist practice - but you cannot take some thing from Buddhists and then say, "I am a practitioner." Especially Tantric practice depends so much on guru and student relationship. I think it is the faith and devotion to the guru - that is what ultimately transforms us. That faith and devotion turns into wisdom, which is an unbroken realisation of the wisdom of awareness, or recognition, which is rigpa - which is the inseparable quality of Samantabhadra to your teacher. So you have to have that faith and devotion to your teacher.

Naljorpa Ögyen Drak-tsal Rigpa'i Dorje: Ngak'chang Rinpoche points out that there are certainly cultural forms of Buddhist practice - cultural differences - but that the principle and function of Buddhism must be clearly understood. The Vajra Master is part of the principle and function of Vajrayana; they don't exist separately.

Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche: Yes. When you are practising, there is vajra pride in your practice - a pride in your practice which you do not understand. This pride itself, if you interpret it, is some kind of discriminating wisdom. Then you understand; and with it you know how to analyse, how to investigate your teacher. Then that pride itself becomes a wisdom - this faith and the devotion itself becomes the wisdom. Some people believe that it is some kind of blind faith - I know that some people have this blind faith, but it is not that. I really feel that faith and devotion is the main practice of the Tantric practitioner's practice. If you lack that, then there is no fruit in your practice.

So to experience that which you experience through pure perception is enlightenment. The pure perception practice is gained through faith and devotion.

Naljorpa Ögyen Drak-tsal Rigpa'i Dorje: So this underlies any other form of practice?

Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche: Yes, especially in Tantra and Dzogchen. Without a teacher, you cannot attain enlightenment. You have to depend on a teacher. Depending on a teacher means that you have to have this faith - and that this faith itself is the wisdom.

Naljorpa Ögyen Drak-tsal Rigpa'i Dorje: I have heard some Western people say that they don't need the Vajra Master. That they can rely, for example, on the `collective wisdom of the sangha' instead of the Vajra Master.

Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche: It is said in the Sutras: `Do not rely on the teacher; but on the words of the teacher.' - but you have to rely on the teacher when you are in Tantric practice. Then it is said that it is not only on the projected meaning of the word, but on the hidden meaning of the word - and also not on the conceptual consciousness; but on the wisdom reflection of your mind - you should rely on that. That itself means `guru'; that itself is the guru.

Naljorpa Ögyen Drak-tsal Rigpa'i Dorje: And that is linked, or brought forth, by the faith and devotion itself?

Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche: Yes, because this faith and devotion is one kind of antidote which purifies or eradicates all of the emotions. If you do not have a teacher, you can become very prideful and arrogant.

Naljorpa Ögyen Drak-tsal Rigpa'i Dorje: It sounds then like the faith and devotion is being transformed into yeshé?

Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche: When you have pure faith and devotion, it means that you have pure awareness - or pure recognition. It is called pure perception.

Naljorpa Ögyen Drak-tsal Rigpa'i Dorje: Is this the same as dharmakaya?

Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche: To a certain length, yes. If you have pure perception, you could express it as dharmakaya. You could also express it as Sambhogakaya or Nirmanakaya. We are talking about guru - you have a guru who is a nirmanakaya of the Buddha. Talking on the nirmanakaya level - that is the practice of Tantra. Whatever is in the beginning, is in the end - the unchanging is the Buddha nature. Whatever we are realising now, is in the end. It is here itself - that which cannot be changed. `Mind and mind-emotion - all thought - is the luminous wisdom.' So to experience that which you experience through pure perception is enlightenment. The pure perception practice is gained through faith and devotion. You could try other methods, too; meditation is also very good. If you do not have meditation it is difficult. But, of course, you cannot just say that you are sitting and meditating, if you do not have pure vision and pure perception. It is depending upon your faith and your devotion that your wisdom opens. I think Tantra is a very direct way of teaching us all of this - recognising our emotion and every thought/concept of our mind as wisdom.

Naljorpa Ögyen Drak-tsal Rigpa'i Dorje: Would you care to talk anything about the differences or the similarities between the red sangha and the white sangha?

Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche: There is no difference in practising between the white sangha and the red sangha. The white sangha's practice is not less than practising red sangha. But in the Tantric practice, the precepts are more than that. In Tantra we have to abandon all negative actions of Body and Speech - and even Mind. This is found in the Fourteen Root Vows. The Tantric teachings say that it is the undistracted method of attaining enlightenment - a swift way - swift and with lots of methods, with skilful means.

Naljorpa Ögyen Drak-tsal Rigpa'i Dorje: We hear sometimes in the West that because it is swift and direct, that this is why we need to rely on the Lama - to keep us out of the danger; because it is easy to get confused with the freedom and the many, many methods of Tantra.

This time, at Pema 'ö-Sel Ling I received the Tröma Nakmo and Machig Labdrön empowerments from Ngak'chang Rinpoche - because there are different lineages which come from different directions.

Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche: Starting from the Sutra level to Tantra level, you have to depend on the teacher. There is no Buddha who has never depended on a teacher; this teacher itself is the wisdom. If you just explain it in a physical projection, it is your teacher; but intellectually, or if you are talking on an inside level, it is the wisdom - that whatever is projecting outside is your wisdom. So it is very important to rely on a teacher - starting from the Sutra through the Tantra level - it is said that without relying on a teacher, you can never attain enlightenment.

Naljorpa Ögyen Drak-tsal Rigpa'i Dorje: Would you care to talk at all about some of your teachers?

Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche: My teachers are Kyabje Dilgo Khyentsé Rinpoche, Kyabjé Chatral Seng-gé Dorje Rinpoche, Kyabjé DoDrüpchen - they are all Dzogchen masters. I unfortunately did not receive any teachings from Kyabjé Düd'jom Rinpoche, because I was in an English school when I was very young; but I received some empowerments. But since my uncle is a very close student of Düd'jom Rinpoche, in our family lineage we practise Düd'jom gTérsar. Because most of my teachers were Dzogchen practitioners, so I am more on the Dzogchen side, like Longchen Nying-thig. From them I have received most secret teachings, like Yeshé Lama, and other different empowerments. Ngak'chang Rinpoche shares some of the same teachers that I with - Dud'jom Rinpoche, Dilgo Khyentsé Rinpoche, and especially Kyabjé Künzang Dorje Rinpoche. This time, at Pema 'ö-Sel Ling I received the Tröma Nakmo and Machig Labdrön empowerments from Ngak'chang Rinpoche - because there are different lineages which come from different directions. Like the Dzogchen lineage of Khyungchen Aro Lingma, and the different Tantric lineages of Tröma Nakmo and Machig Labdrön's gCod. There are some Tibetan lineages which come directly and some that are diverted through different incarnations - and through that diversion, you get another lineage. That is why I wanted to receive the empowerment of Tröma Nakmo from Ngak'chang Rinpoche. But actually - all our lineages come from the one source.

Naljorpa Ögyen Drak-tsal Rigpa'i Dorje: Rinpoche commented to me that you are very young to be a Khenpo ; and that perhaps you had been recognised as a rebirth of another Lama? Would you care to talk about this?

Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche: I was recognised as a tülku at some time; but I was sent to an ordinary school first, so that I would learn English. After some time, my mother emphasised that I should go and study Dharma as I should as a tulku. Then I took up this life style. I went to a Nyingma shédra (monastic school) and completed my studies. It is like a degree award - I have that Khenpo degree

Naljorpa Ögyen Drak-tsal Rigpa'i Dorje: Did you complete your studies in Bhutan, or did you also study in India and Nepal?

Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche: I studied in Nepal and then in India; because Nyingmapas did not have those kind of monastic schools in Bhutan at that time - but lately they have established some schools. When I went, we were more dependent on Tibetan teachers, where we got more Dzogchen lineage. So I went to Nepal and then studied.

Naljorpa Ögyen Drak-tsal Rigpa'i Dorje: I would like to thank you for your ability to teach in English; it is very fortunate for us in America and the West that you take the effort and time to learn our language to be able to teach us in our own language. I feel very grateful for your efforts in this direction. It is something that would otherwise be very difficult for us.

Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche: I hope I can be of help. I have motivation to teach and then to benefit people. And I hope that I can do it in some time.

Naljorpa Ögyen Drak-tsal Rigpa'i Dorje: Are you going to be teaching here at the present Shédra at Pema 'ö-Sel Ling? Or have you been teaching at the Shédra?

Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche: Not at the Shédra; because the Shédra is not yet started. But they have this provision for having a Shédra; so I hope, if I can be of some benefit to them, that I will teach - yes.

Naljorpa Ögyen Drak-tsal Rigpa'i Dorje: Do you have any area within dharma studies or practice that you specialise in? You mentioned Dzogchen and the Düd'jom gTérsar?

Back in Tibet, you are not given Tantric teachings unless you have taken the Tantric vows; so it is not that you have to know the Tantric teachings before you take your vows. You can take Tantric teachings first; but then you can take Tantric vows first, and learn the Tantric teachings next.

Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche: I don't discriminate so much from Dzogchen and Düd'jom gTérsar ; I am very flexible - I like both. Because I went to a Dzogchen monastery and a Dzogchen lineage, so I feel Dzogchen is what I learned. But I feel because of my family background, we have been practising Düd'jom gTérsar, I feel I am more inclined to Düd'jom gTérsar; even if I went to a Dzogchen school. I can teach from basic Sutra to Tantra, depending upon the students I will be teaching. It happens like this: When you start a monastic school or Shédra, the first year you don't teach Tantra; you start from Sutra. The first year you have few students, and then the next year you have more students. The more senior students get deeper or more profound teachings; and it goes high, high, and then at one level you teach the Tantra.

Naljorpa Ögyen Drak-tsal Rigpa'i Dorje: From what you have seen of people in America and the West, what is your feeling . . . Which teachings do you think we can most benefit from?

Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche: I think Dzogchen teachings are very important for Americans, very crucial; and then very effective for them, because they don't have so much time - they are more distracted. If you really take the essence of Dzogchen practice, like practising Guru Yoga - and, if you can get it right. It means visualising your Guru as the primordial Buddha, or Padmasambhava - so if you don't have faith and devotion, you cannot get that right. I think you come back again to faith and devotion. Sometimes when you say faith and devotion it means just stupid emotion, or stupid faith - uninvestigated faith. It should be free; that faith should be free from uninvestigated stupidity.

Naljorpa Ögyen Drak-tsal Rigpa'i Dorje: That is very interesting. So how would you describe intelligent faith?

Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche: This faith means that every moment of your awareness, every moment of your consciousness, you should recognise as Guru activity. Whatever you see is the form of Buddha, the form of Guru. Whatever you hear is the speech of the Buddha or the Guru. And whatever you think is just the mind of the Buddha.

Naljorpa Ögyen Drak-tsal Rigpa'i Dorje: Is this the same as `Taking the Three Kayas of the Lama as the Path', which Ngak'chang Rinpoche described to us today in his teachings today?

Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche: Yes, it is just that. Because Tantric practice is the heart of all this practice. What he described is condensed or refined and made so short, that somebody can practise it to attain enlightenment swiftly. So if you do it correctly, you can attain enlightenment in this very lifetime. That is why we call Vajrayana the Diamond Path: If you do it correctly, you will attain the state of the Dorje Chang, the vajra-holder in this lifetime. But if someone get it wrong, or if they break their `vows of the vajra', they will fall into the Vajra Hells.

Naljorpa Ögyen Drak-tsal Rigpa'i Dorje: Could you describe a little bit about Vajra Hell?

Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche: In Vajrayana we have empowerments. With empowerments we are connected with a lot of people; we become a very big community. In fact, Vajrayana is a very secret teaching, as you know. When an empowerment is given, you are connected with all the people who are there in that environment - what some teachers may call `brotherhood'. So every person who is there in the teaching becomes your vajra brothers and sisters; and there are your vows - your vows and precepts. That practice is very hard; if you practise that one, you can attain enlightenment. But if you think, `Oh, this is nothing'; if you consider that even your vajra brothers are nothing, you break your vajra samayas, the vajra precepts. Ultimately, when you die, you fall into the Vajra Hell; there is no other place. So it is necessary and very important for somebody, even for teachers, to be selective of a student; and even students to be selective of his teachers, so as not to break samaya. Once you have received these vajra vows, you should really be able to put it into practice.

Naljorpa Ögyen Drak-tsal Rigpa'i Dorje: So what would you advise for people who are interested in being serious practitioners, and when they are at the phase of considering whether they should enter into vajra samaya with a Lama - what should people look for, and question in themselves?

Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche: As soon as you get a vajra empowerment, you become vajra brothers and sisters and you are connected in this time and family - even if you know or do not know the vajra vows. To go into this practice is to study. Back in Tibet, you are not given Tantric teachings unless you have taken the Tantric vows; so it is not that you have to know the Tantric teachings before you take your vows. You can take Tantric teachings first; but then you can take Tantric vows first, and learn the Tantric teachings next.

Naljorpa Ögyen Drak-tsal Rigpa'i Dorje: In this country we often see that Lamas will come, as Ngak'chang Rinpoche did this weekend, and offer empowerments to people without knowing whether they have studied the Tantric vows. Can you talk about how hat situation that seems to have developed?

Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche: The teacher comes, so he thinks that he can benefit people. It depends upon the students whether they practise the samaya or not. It is said that the teacher should have the capacity, whether the student is the right vessel or the right student who can really receive the Tantric teachings. The teacher has no bad perception; because in his perception everybody has this sense of enlightenment. That is why Ngak'chang Rinpoche and other Lamas give teachings to everybody, regardless whether he knows or not whether the student can really practise or not. It depends upon us, every individual, to practise these Tantric teachings and to keep the vajra samaya, not to break it. I feel that here, with the kind of teaching Ngak'chang Rinpoche gave, it is a very good opportunity; because Tantra is also a teaching that is given to people of higher understanding. I feel that Westerners are highly intellectual. So if the Tantric teachings are conveyed in the right way to the student, the student can really get it and then put it into practice. It is the way you convey it. I would say, since we are all practitioners of secret Tantra, the most important thing is just devotion - faith and devotion. As you realise endless wisdom - there are stages of realising the wisdom, different levels of realising the wisdom. So as you go on, you will understand; maybe what I am saying - and it will make sense. What Ngak'chang Rinpoche taught is a practice which shows you the nature of the Mind. By meditating as Ngak'chang Rinpoche instructed you can do it; by following these precepts you can discover the nature of Mind. There are different interpretations of these teachings according to different traditions, but the all mean the same thing.

Naljorpa Ögyen Drak-tsal Rigpa'i Dorje: Thank you so much, Rinpoche. I very much appreciate your time.

Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal Rinpoche: You are welcome. We surely hope we will see you again, when Ngak'chang Rinpoche visits Pema 'ö-Sel Ling again to teach.

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